Welcome to the second Campfire Checkpoint!

Hi Fellows,

This one’s a bit of a longer sit by the fire.

We’ve gathered a lot to share this time around. Some reflections on where things are headed, a deeper look at a few of the systems you’ve been asking about, and even an interview with one of the people helping shape it all behind the scenes.

As always, this isn’t just about us talking [i]at[/i] you. The questions, discussions, and feedback from all of you continue to shape these conversations in a very real way. This checkpoint is as much a response as it is an update.

So grab a snack, maybe a mug of something warm, and settle in. Welcome to the Campfire Checkpoint.

Q&A with Paul (CR_PDJR) our System Designer

Recently, we reached out to gather your questions and feedback, and you delivered. One topic in particular stood out. After being briefly mentioned by Axel in the latest Dev Talk, it sparked a lot of discussion, concerns, and strong opinions across the community. It was clear this wasn’t something we could address in passing, so we’ve dedicated a full section to it here.

If you missed the chance to participate, make sure to join us on Discord. That’s where we’ll be hosting more of these in the future, and where many of these conversations take shape in real time.

Hello Fellows!

I am Paul (CR_PDJR), our Systems Designer and I’m here to answer your questions about the Dynamic Loot System (ARPG-style loot system) Axel hinted at in his conversations with Hamish. Let's jump right in!

[b]Question: Why are you working on this instead of more dungeons and hero content? [/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] In short, we are doing both, and not at a detriment to each other. The dungeon and hero teams at Chief Rebel share a lot of resources, with programmers and artists needed for both. This led to two Heroes being released for Early Access Preseason 2 while the Dungeons were not yet ready and polished to go. The core team, which is working on this prototype, does not have significant overlap with the dungeon and hero development. This allows them to focus on supporting these efforts and conduct this prototype as needed.

[b]Question: How does this solve all the problems? Why are you not balancing other known issues?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] It doesn’t. It’s not a silver bullet. These changes are part of multiple adjustments that will be worked on by me and others, and will be evaluated for Early Access Season 3. Some will pass testing and be implemented, while others will have to go through a few more iterations and be introduced later if we find them to be appropriate. Our goal is to have as much as possible ready for you guys by the start of the next Early Access Season but [i]please[/i] note that everything mentioned here might not make it, not because we are working on the new loot system, but because something else blocked it.

[i]Such examples include but are not limited to:[/i]

• Bad luck protection 

• League structure: queueable capstones, smaller difficulty buckets and faster difficulty ramping

• Adjusting solo-que matchmaking buckets

• Adjusting eternal tiers/queue system

• Implementing leaver penalties

• How to move Gems to an equip limit system for easier experimentation

• Adjusting Weapons to be more flexible and less of an investment pain point

• Timegating and Weekly Catch-up possibilities

[b]Question: Why change things now? We've already had two Seasons of the previous system, I personally like that system.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] In truth? Because we've wanted to make some changes to the system for quite some time and we are already in this part of the codebase. While we can never get rid of a BiS-System, our current way of doing items doesn't allow for the playset creativity we are wanting to encourage for players. We want the BiS-System to be more "one of the best" instead of "always the best".  We want to encourage character build creativity and cross party variations which allow folks to play in interesting ways.

This also coincides with other work, we are doing development for a more robust bad luck protection system which has us reworking similar areas of the code. Thus we decided to devote some of that time to this prototype to see if it is worthwhile.

[b]Question: Why didn't you post details about the system for more concrete feedback? ARPG is quite nebulous.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] That's a good point. We wanted to hear your general concerns and worries as opposed to the direct comments of a plan which was, and still is, undergoing changes. Our internal playtests will soon be starting with the prototype and we will make changes there. Below I will give you a summary of the system as it currently stands and we can do another round of Q&A if wanted over more exact details when we have them.

[u][b]NOTE: THIS IS THE MODEL PLAN FOR DISCUSSION AND IT WILL BE CHANGED BY PLAYTESTING, FEEDBACK, AND TECHNICAL RESTRICTIONS AS NEEDED.[/b][/u]

Our current model is very much a hybrid system. It's not fully an ARPG nor is it fully as "expected" from similar games. If I were to give a summary its this:

• An Item's item level is determined by the difficulty of the Dungeon that is Run 

• An Item's Upgrade Potential is determined by the difficulty of the Dungeon

• An Items Rarity determines its Fixed Stats and Random Modifier potential

• An Item's Rarity is a % system with Bad Luck Protection (No longer fixed per league)

• % Rarity Drops are currently uniform across leagues

This is how most items will work. Items will have functionally two sets of stats: 

• the Fixed Stats- which is are predefined to exist if not predefined to be an exact stat (aka the base item)

• the Random Modifiers- which is what additional stats can exist on the item based on conditions (this is determined by rarity)

An Item's Rarity will determine both how the Fixed Stats and Random Modifiers Act:

Fixed Stats

Uncommon

3 Stats

+1 Rand. Stat

Rare

3 Stats

+1 Rand. Stat

Epic

3 Stats

+1 Rand. Stat

Paragon

3 Stats

+2 Rand. Stat

Eternal

3 Stats

+2 Rand. Stat

Yes, the fixed set can have random stats. It can get a little confusing but stick with me here.

I am going to start using an item as an example here: [b]Ryker's Cloak of Misfortune [/b]

This Cloak comes with 3 fixed stats: [u]Stamina[/u], [u]Primary[/u], and [u]Spirit[/u]

Depending on the [u]Rarity,[/u] it can have [u]1-2 more Random Stats[/u] added to this.

The Random Stats here are at a different ratio than the Primary Fixed Stats, at around .5 of the value of a primary stat. (Do note this is not 100% true, Fixed and Random Stats have a different in weighting, but also each primary/secondary stat has their own weighting and value system so I'm talking theoreticals here and not exact values)

So we randomize and [b]Ryker's Cloak of Misfortune[/b] that's Rare and get +1 Random Stat which randomizes to Primary Value, so its current values would be

[b]Ryker's Cloak of Misfortune[/b]

1.0 Stamina

1.5 Primary Stat

1.0 Spirit

Now lets look at the Random Modifiers are rolled based on Rarity:

Uncommon

0 Random Modifiers

Rare

1 Random Modifiers

Epic

2 Random Modifiers

Paragon

2 Random Modifiers

Eternal

4 Random Modifiers

These Random Modifiers can be any of (THESE ARE EXAMPLES STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT):

+ 1 Random Stat

+ Gem Socket

(Don’t assume full 1:1 of the socket system as it exists)

+ Ability Rank

(Idea under development)

+ Weapon Point

(Idea under development)

So [b]Ryker's Cloak of Misfortune [/b]is Rare and would get 1 Random Modifier - like a socket

So the final item item would be:

[b]Ryker's Cloak of Misfortune [/b]

Cloth Armor

1.0 Stamina

1.5 Primary Stat

1.0 Spirit

+ Gem Socket

Legendaries have their own twist on this system as they will have more “Fixed Stats” defined such as the legendary traits and a socket.

Items such as those with Set Bonuses, Relics and Weapons, will currently have it where their first Random Modifier will be hard set to be including the attached ability/stat modifier associated with it. So Uncommon Weapons will not have an ability attached to them but Rare Weapons will.

[u]How Weapon Trait Trees will be adjusted is not yet fully determined.[/u] As you can see, we are exploring changes to the system by introducing weapon points, potentially having each weapon include a trait tree, where the total number of points from your equipped set (all slots and the weapon) determines which nodes in the tree you can activate. However, we are still evaluating a range of different ideas.

Ability Rank is not something I can go into good detail now because it's still being worked out to a functional level but if I were to allude to things - think of a hero based trait like legendaries, but not as innately powerful, which can be further strengthened based on how many similar types of gear are equipped.

Socket and Gem Changes deserve their own dedicated conversation but in short we’ve been listening to your requests of wanting a larger gem pool for experimentation across one or more heroes. So we are looking into how to implement a equipped gem power restriction and are changing socket functionality to reflect that.

[b]Question: Does this loot system contradict the promise of no endless grinding? If progression depends on repeatedly chasing rare rolls, the core promise of the game is already broken.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] Progression will not depend solely on chasing rare rolls. Item level will remain tied to difficulty, and you can still upgrade items, but only up to a certain point as stated above. Certain fixed stats will remain on items and will mirror the kinds of items available in Early Access Season 2.

What is no longer guaranteed is item rarity, meaning the breadth of extra random modifiers added to items. This will function similarly to chasing legendary items in the current season, but with bad luck protection in place to provide better guardrails.

[b]Question: Can players complete a viable build in a fair and predictable number of dungeon runs? Players need to feel there is a real endpoint, not an infinite chase disguised as progression.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] Yes, you will be able to plan around the base item stats you get from difficulty and item level in certain dungeons. This will likely be the way to build a strong baseline set, and then play within the variations of that BiS grouping.

[b]Question: Does skill matter more than repetition in how players earn power? In a dungeons-only game, rewards should come primarily from mastery and challenge, not from brute-force volume.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] Agreed, and by keeping item level, powers, and stat ratios tied to difficulty, we aim to maintain better rewards for skill-based completions.

[b]Question: Bad Luck Protection How? Do unlucky players still make guaranteed progress? A player who clears content consistently should always move closer to their goal, even when drops do not go their way.[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] Our Bad Luck Protection will be built around Slot and Rarity (if we do this as a dynamic system). We will be looking at recent loot history and adapting the weighting of the rolls based on such. A player who clears high content consistency should be getting gear that helps push their success and also pushes them towards their goals.

We are also looking into how re-rolling functionality may need to change. Before we decide entirely on how this will work though, we are going to first focus on item structure itself to see that it's worth doing.

[b]Question: How do you plan to keep random affix gear interesting and build-defining without breaking balance, progression, or class design, especially given team size constraints?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] A valid fear, and something that I know will keep me up at night and busy around release. Something will always slip through the cracks, and we will need to be as thorough as possible in our testing and as flexible as we can with our toolset.

We want to push and create interesting possibilities for builds, and with this new system we are creating tools that allow us to tweak items as they exist in the game. For example, we could replace the effect on a legendary or adjust the stat calculation of a fixed part of an item, and have items be recalculated and updated across players instead of deleting them, which is what we currently have to do.

If this requires a more active role during Seasons, we would maintain a list of gear changes in a noticeboard, similar to how card games communicate when a card has been removed or altered.

We also expect to regularly update the Randomization Modifier Pools between seasons, removing bonuses that players clearly do not enjoy and potentially buffing those that are underutilized. Simply adding more would increase the burden on min-maxing, so we will aim for a balance of adjustments, rotating elements in and out over time, similar to how we intend to handle Dungeon Modifiers.

[b]Question: Will these changes shift the focus from pushing the highest keys to farming the best gear, or simply speed up the grind to BIS? And are there plans to incentivize other gearing paths beyond repeatedly farming the same capstone?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] The focus will still be on trying to push the highest possible key for the best gear farming as item level and upgrade status is determined by it. This change is intended to do a few things: widen the BiS-gear possibilities - as there will be many more ways items can work together, and to widen the potential variant playstyles and item sets.

I hear the frustration about Eternal capstone farming. It is a tougher problem to solve and not one with an obvious or easy solution. The progression of Eternal Mode is intended to be primarily skill over gear. If item level were allowed to scale further into Eternal Mode, that would move away from that paradigm and would not address the farming problem. Eternal would become a mode that can be powered through with item level rather than acting as a skill test, and the farming focus would shift further than it currently is.

There are some new things we can consider with dynamic items. For example, I could adjust the chance of rarities in later Eternal progression so there is a higher chance of better item possibilities, without directly increasing power. However, what we do here will either come later in this implementation process or be adjusted once we have a better understanding of how the item changes feel within the leagues themselves.

[b]Question: Will the new loot system improve progression in the lower leagues? Right now, it’s possible to skip entire tiers without ever getting upgrades for certain slots, making early gearing feel inconsistent and wasteful to invest in. Will lower leagues see better loot compared to Eternal, and will this change how we farm materials and gold?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] We look to change the lower leagues for the better with this system alongside many of the other changes. Bad Luck Protection is something that will make it where slots getting ignored or skipped much less likely. I wouldn’t look at this system with the perception that you will be going as fast as Early Access Season 2. Early Access Season 3’s balancing is aiming for somewhere between Early Access Season 1 and 2 in speed and difficulty.

[b]Question: How are you ensuring that loot remains fun and powerful in group play without allowing one player’s lucky drop to overshadow others and make them feel less impactful?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] A valid fear. Since item level will be standardized across drops, this should not create an immediate, "carriable" power spike. However, if your group friend gets a higher rarity, the potential of their item is higher in the long run, meaning they may hold onto that item longer while you cycle out your reward sooner.

An exception may be legendaries? It is hard to make legendary items anything other than cool and powerful, but we are looking to have legendary items drop at regular item level intervals to help compensate for this.

[b]Question: Will the new loot system speed up or slow down gearing? If I invest significant time into a character, should I expect to reach near-max gear quickly, while BiS still requires a longer grind? And how will this system impact gold income and upgrade costs—will it become easier or harder to afford upgrades and weapon trees?[/b]

[b]Answer:[/b] In truth, we are not yet sure. That is part of what testing and iteration will help us evaluate, but I can give some general direction. The item changes are intended to create more opportunities for BiS-like gear. We understand that offering more opportunities can increase the grind for a specific item, but we hope to offset that with a good rotation of options and crafting tools that help target specific additions.

For alt-friendliness, the impact will likely come more from the other changes, such as those to gems, Bad Luck Protection, and weapons that we are currently exploring. These should allow you to obtain desired items faster and with more certainty, reducing issues caused by current item randomization, particularly with legendary drops. Gem system changes would make that system much less restrictive, making it easier to progress across multiple heroes. We are also looking at reducing the heavy cost sink associated with weapons, which would free up resources and transmutables that could be used on other heroes.

I do not have specific comments on upgrade costs or gold drops at this time, but the overall economy will be something we review once we determine whether we are moving forward with this system.

[u][b]REMEMBER: THIS IS THE MODEL PLAN FOR DISCUSSION AND IT WILL BE CHANGED BY PLAYTESTING, FEEDBACK, AND TECHNICAL RESTRICTIONS AS NEEDED. DO NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN IT CHANGES UPON RELEASE!!!![/b][/u]

Well I hope you enjoyed that wall of text, I could sit here and talk about such a subject all day but I must sadly stop here and get back to the duties of prototyping and testing. I will let you know that if I didn’t answer your questions specifically, I did read them and consider them in what we are doing. I lurk the discord much more than you all know to hear concerns unfiltered and unprompted. So keep up the conversations and threads. If there are more follow-up questions maybe we can do a second round of this!

Our Stance on Cheating, Exploits and Bug Abuse

Before writing out our official stances, we want to emphasize that this stance is subject to change once we move out of Early Access. For now, our priority is to have issues like this brought to our attention as quickly as possible, without anyone feeling concerned about risking their account simply by reporting or discussing them.

Shadowlord, Sentinels and More:

If it is in the game, it is fair game. Any bugs or unintended mechanics that make it into the live environment are ultimately our responsibility. We also value the creative ways players discover and interact with these systems, even when they behave in unexpected ways.

For now, issues such as Shadowlord, Sentinel interactions, and similar bugs will be addressed and patched out in EAS3. Until then, there will be no bans or leaderboard resets related to these cases.

Removing such mechanics immediately could introduce additional issues, create unfair competitive disadvantages, and risk disrupting player progress. Our goal is to avoid placing unnecessary obstacles in your way.

We will be sharing a video demonstrating how to perform the Shadowlord trick, created by our talented creator Dying:

For the rest, you have to do some investigating of your own!

Overlay:

Adding trackers for elements such as relics, spirit abilities, and other in-game systems is something we intend to support officially in the future. This also includes information like pull percentages.

Because of this, we will not be taking action against players who choose to use overlays before these features are implemented in-game.

That said, we did take action in cases where players were found altering the backend to grant themselves unlimited talent points, weapon tree node allocations and 3000 item level gear. To clear up some confusion: Modifying the backend to remove or bypass intended limits is not considered “in the game,” and therefore does not fall under our “fair game” stance. It was NOT a widespread issue and it was contained to a very select few players who shared it amongst themselves. The primary concern for us right now is that non-cheating players may be affected when their runs are invalidated because they happened to end up in a group with the cheaters. Unfortunately, there was no way to avoid this in the affected cases.

The following actions were taken on accounts found cheating:

• All talent points have been reset

• All affected weapons have been removed

• All leaderboard entries involving cheated weapons or talents have been fully removed

A big thank you to everyone who reported these issues and helped bring them to our attention. Your efforts play a crucial role in improving the game and strengthening the community. This abuse was identified and patched within 24 hours of discovery and is no longer viable. In addition, new automated flagging tools have been implemented to help detect and address similar cases more effectively in the future.

Thanks for reading, you've made it to the end! - Chief Rebel Team